„We did a lot of tapetrading, you sat around the campfire in the evening and people came from Velbert, Living Death for example, and Assassin from Düsseldorf.“
After Daniel, the singer of Defected Decay, contacted me in June last year for a review of the great second album "Troops of Abomination" (review here), we arranged an appointment for an interview on location in beautiful Hattingen. The weather threw a spanner in the works of the originally planned date, but two weeks later, on a weekend at the end of January, the time had come. So I set off by car to the Hattingen, which I can only warmly recommend to anyone who likes cosy half-timbered towns. Even on the way there, the last few kilometres of the journey seemed familiar, and that's right, this is also the way to Witten, or rather to the Muttental, where you can hike and also mountain bike very well on the traces of former mining. Singer Daniel and instrumentalist Dirk turned out to be nice and conversational guys, we talked a lot about Defected Decay, their other musical playgrounds like Suffersystem as well as about the metal history in the Ruhr area. We conducted the interview in Daniel's living room and were very nicely provided with drinks by his wife, thanks again for that!
At Daniel's house, I first examined the CD collection and a few cassettes, which led us to the topic of demotapes.
Dirk: I had the first Death recordings on tape in the mid-80s and the "Pits of utomno" demo from Morgoth. Unfortunately I gave them all away back then. I was born in Essen and had a rehearsal room at the Zeche Carl between Kreator and Darkness. We had just learned to play our instruments and sounded a bit like Hellhammer. The people from the scene were three to four years older than us, we were always the youngest and always copied a bit from them. It was a good time back then. We did a lot of tapetrading, we sat around the campfire in the evenings and people from Velbert came, Living Death for example, and Assassin from Düsseldorf. In Essen there was Chainsaw, they also did Thrash and a few others, we listened to tapes until everyone was drunk and then Carnivore's "Retaliation" played on a continuous loop for the rest of the night.
My cousin got me into metal. At the beginning of the 80s, when I was twelve, I listened to the typical stuff, first the "Neue Deutsche Welle" and then I had this electro pop phase with Depeche Mode and the likes. One day my cousin arrived and handed me "Ride the Lightning" and "Pleasure to Kill". I was supposed to record them for him on cassette, because I had a record player with a cassette deck and could record them. Clever as I was, I copied it for myself and that was it for me. I never threw Depeche Mode away, I still have the old records from the past.
I also find the copying topic quite interesting. Back then, people often copied each other's albums onto tape and then often got something copied onto the B-side that they didn't know. That's how you often came across things that you would never have heard of otherwise. There's a page on Instagram called "My old TDKs" where someone posts pictures of their old copied tapes. It's kind of pointless, but in a way it brings back a lot of memories. There's also some really unusual stuff with Cannibal Corpse on the A-side and Def Leppard on the B-side. And some of the tapes had hand-painted logos, I can still remember that...
Daniel: I also did some weird mixes, like Morbid Angel and Mötley Crüe together on one tape.
Dirk: I always loved to make samplers, whether on cassette or CD, they were quickly put together with Nero or from the hard drive. I always did it according to genre. For example, I made speed metal samplers, I also listened to a lot of old German metal stuff, whether it was Accept back then or Iron Angel or SDI, there were so many great speed metal bands. I will always remember Regicide from Wuppertal, who unfortunately never managed to get a record deal. I saw them live once with SDI, they were also really good, and quite punky for the fact that it was actually speed / thrash metal. Then came death metal and then of course I only put US-stuff like Obituary and Morbid Angel on a sampler. One cassette contained only Swedish death metal. There weren't so many bands back then, especially Unleashed, Grave, Dismember and Entombed.
That's how I remember it, this 4-piece of Swedish death metal.
Daniel: At the Gates came along somehow.
For me, they came later, too.
Dirk: I also have two albums by them, but I never really liked them.
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„I'm an absolute Death fan, "Scream Bloody Gore", I bought it at the Metal Börse in the Zeche Bochum, the record was hanging right in the entrance area. It just came out, I've told Daniel the story ten thousand times, I'm sure he can't hear it anymore, haha.“
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I prefer At the Gates' "With fear I kiss the burning darkness". Or the debut album "The red in the sky is ours".
Dirk: That was always too melodic for me, I just liked evil death metal. For me, Deicide, Morbid Angel and Suffocation were the best. Hard, that was the main thing back then: hard guitar riffs, a lot of double bass and then it went partly in the technical direction with Suffocation's "Pierced from within" or with Gorguts' "Erosion of sanity".
And that was exactly my thing, really technical, well produced by Scott Burns in Florida. And then of course Death! I'm an absolute Death fan, "Scream Bloody Gore", I bought it at the Metal Börse in the Zeche Bochum, the record was hanging right in the entrance area. It just came out, I've told Daniel the story ten thousand times, he can't hear it anymore, haha. And I'll never forget that cover of the "Scream Bloody Gore" album. That impressed me so much. I took the record straight away, a T-shirt too and since then I've been an absolute Death fan. I didn't like "Sound of Perseverance" as much, because the vocals weren't so evil anymore. But instrumentally this album is also top!
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Dirk: Even then there was only Rock Hard and Metal Hammer magazine and I always looked at who were the last five albums in the ranking. I always bought them blind, that always worked out well, haha.
So I always actually bought a lot according to Frank Albrecht's recommendations in German Rock Hard magazine, and that was actually always right. That's how I got to know gems like Necrophobic's debut album "The nocturnal silence".
Daniel: That's right, I always orientated myself on his reviews.
Except for one thing, the Mercyful Fate comeback album "In the shadows" was highly praised at the time and won the editorial rating by far. Bought it at the local record shop in Brühl (they even had it with their modest selection), put it on at home, and realised that it's horrible, haha.
Daniel: Not only Mercyful Fate but also King Diamond are totally overrated. They played at the Rock Hard Festival a few years ago, and it was a lot of yelling.
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„It took these magazines a long time to understand how the music works and what people value too. I'll never forget when Cannibal Corpse's Eaten Back to Life came out, it had the last spot in Metal Hammer or was the Rock Hard ass bomb.“
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At that time there was no YouTube or Band Camp where you could have listened to them beforehand. But some of the albums that were really back then or became "ass bomb of the month" (this means that it is by far the worst publication in the relevant period from the editorial point of view) in Rock Hard - which people remember even after decades - are considered classics today, for example Mangled Torsos' "Drawings of the Dead", which was released via Morbid Records back then. Ved Buen's End or Dodheimsgard were also badmouthed, today these records are partly celebrated by the same people who rejected them back then.
Dirk: When "Effigy of The Forgotten" by Suffocation came out, Rock Hard wrote that the drummer couldn't play, he would only bang on it, I never forgot that, but it´s just as well drummed in as "Pierced from within". I never understood that and now they write themselves that Suffocation are an institution in technical brutal death metal. These magazines took a long time to understand how the music works and what people also value. I will never forget when Cannibal Corpse's "Eaten Back to Life" came out, it had the last place in Metal Hammer or was the Rock Hard ass bomb. At that time I had a girlfriend from Winsen an der Luhe, which is just outside Hamburg. I was at her place and when Cannibal Corpse came out, we drove an hour to Hamburg just so I could buy the record and CD at WOM.
WOM doesn't exist any more, at least not in the stationary trade. There used to be one in Cologne, but Saturn on Hansaring used to be an institution here, and it used to have the biggest selection of records in the world.
Daniel: WOM also used to exist in Essen.
Dirk: All the shops in Essen closed down at some point, including Karstadt Hören und Lesen.
Daniel: That shop was great, I used to go there a lot, I bought a lot of CDs there. At that time, they were close to the station, so you could go there quickly.
Dirk: Müller in Essen had a huge metal section, it was even bigger than the pop music section. You could order a lot there and they even had US imports, some death metal bands that you wouldn't have got otherwise at that time, I bought there without end. Unfortunately, the people there also stole a lot, and then they closed down at some point.
Back then there were als reords stores called ELPI.
Daniel: There used to be one in Bochum, or there still is, but they probably only sell concert tickets (according to the internet, it's probably history since 2020 - author's note).
Dirk: There was also Power and ELPI in Essen. I actually bought all my records there, because that's how it started.
Daniel: There was also Power in Hattingen.
Daniel: Last year we were there with the livestream, we were there on one day in the Goreminister YouTube channel. I usually go on a canoe tour with a few friends once a year, organised by a friend of mine from Hattingen, and that's how we got in touch with Goreminister. The year before last, in October, we took part with Sodom. And since then we've been dropping off some of our material at Idiots Records from time to time, records and a few CDs or T-shirts. But otherwise I'm relatively rarely in Dortmund.
Dirk: It's a desolate corner of Dortmund, and it's hard to park there.
Daniel: But it's a cool shop, you have to see it.
I've never actually been there, does Sir Hannes (the owner of the record shop with) also walk around in his uniform?
Daniel: Yes, he also wears his helmet, haha. He absolutely lives it. He is now also massively active again with his bands. Last year he had his 50th stage anniversary and celebrated it with Sodom at the FZW in Dortmund.
I saw on your Facebook page that you were once in another local record shop that also sold your stuff.
Daniel: That was Timewarp Records in Gelsenkirchen.
Dirk: They had a box where bands from the area could place their stuff on commission. You can't sell that much on Facebook or Ebay or anywhere else and that possibility wasn't bad for us. We brought stuff there once or twice a year. He got a little something for it, and the people from the neighbourhood knew you and bought your things. Of course, you also bought things from them. It was actually a win-win situation for everyone involved.
It's a good idea, there used to be a little box with local stuff in many record shops. But especially in the Corona pandemic, a record shop like that has an even harder time...
Daniel: Thorsten, the owner of the shop, turned his hobby into his profession at that time, he was unemployed and ventured into self-employment during the Corona pandemic. Everyone said he was crazy, it was a former jeweller's shop that he had taken over, not centrally located but a bit out of the way in Gelsenkirchen. He offered a lot of second-hand things and not much that was new, but as time went on, it became more and more. He also expanded, made a break-through to the neighbouring shop, which probably couldn't be rented out, and furnished it really well. There was a seating area, you could get a coffee, there were always many regular customers and you felt very comfortable there. When we were there, we were always there for a relatively long time. Together with a concert promoter from the Ruhr area, he had planned a one-day festival in Gelsenkirchen, which had already been arranged with the municipal administration. He started booking bands and at some point some citizens rebelled against it because it would be too loud. That was his real idea, to push the district a bit, but there was probably also someone in the citizens' initiative against the festival who was active in politics. Then the city more or less withdrew the commitment again, and unfortunately he had already booked bands, they took recourse against him, and that's how the whole thing died in the end. He tried to cover the costs through crowdfunding, but in the end that didn't turn things around either.
Daniel: Who actually buys a CD or a record nowadays? Of course there are still buyers, fans, collectors, just like us, but I don't buy everything anymore, so that has already reduced. Of course, it also depends a bit on the prices, most of it is only available digitally, sadly. But in the case of Timewarp Records, that's not why it failed.
I see your records and CDs here and I think we all have a decent collection. But whether I really need the 14th Unleashed album is the question...
Daniel: That's true, the best example is the new Obituary album, which I have now ordered blindly as an LP. After listening to it twice on the net, it didn't really stick in my mind, that's my personal opinion, I thought the previous album was better, maybe it's just a snapshot, maybe I have to listen to it ten more times. But actually I know that if it comes out soon, I won't have it on the turntable very often.
Dirk: Well, if I want to listen to Obituary, then I'll take "Cause of Death", maybe "The End Complete", I think that's mega cool too.
I'm a bit confused right now, was "The end complete", the record with this political claim, with lyrics about environmental pollution? Oh no, that was "World demise".
Dirk: That was also the first record where there were lyrics at all, haha. I think everything by them is good, but as I said, "Cause of Death" is more likely to be on the turntable. But let's be honest, I was standing at my stereo the other day, I always put everything I buy new next to the record player, records and CDS, and then I listen to them first. And then I plan to listen to classics again and think to myself, here are my great CDs, how seldom I listen to them instead of listening to some second- or third-rate rubbish. I would have been better off spending my time listening to Malevolent Creations' "The Ten Commandments", Morbid Angels' "Blessed are the Sick" or W.A.S.P.'s "Last Command".
That's the case with many things, whether it's CDs, records or band shirts. You have so much, but usually you fall back on a stock and a lot of it is just lying around unused and unheard.
Daniel: You still try to discover new things, and sometimes you are actually disappointed. So there are really a lot of things that still somehow are very great, but where you say, that's so cool, that's already a classic, that hardly exists anymore.
But that's probably also due to a saturation effect and is somewhere in the nature of things. And it's obvious that the time of youth, when you discovered all that, can no longer be reproduced, because youth and adolescence are actually the most exciting times in life anyway.
Daniel: Yes, definitely.
Dirk: Nevertheless, I think you can always be surprised by new things. I was thinking the other day, let people recommend things to you, most of my friends and acquaintances know what I listen to. I didn't expect anything and 20 or 25 people actually recommended things to me. Of course, there was also black metal stuff, I'm not really a black metal listener, but as I said, I'm into Old School and technical death metal. Thomas from Resurrected, who absolutely knows my taste, recommended 200 Stab Wounds to me. I listened to them directly at Band Camp, they are a great band, they go in the direction of old Suffocation.
Daniel: I have to notice this name, haha.
Dirk: Yeah, I got more some really good stuff recommeded, but most of it is actually no longer available. I also searched Band Camp for Indian bands and found Atmosfear, great Death/Thrash, top produced!
Daniel: In the past you had more time to look into it. I still have a Rock Hard subscription, for example, I can't manage to read through them within a month. When I'm on holiday, I usually catch up on everything. You really have to research and listen to so much. You can't do that with a family. It's just not possible, so you're happy if you can somehow still participate a little bit on the surface.
Dirk: There are more and more subgenres, you can't listen to everything.
But even if you limit yourself to one or two genres, it's hard to keep an overview. Due to the modern technical possibilities, recordings can be made much more easily nowadays, so there's so much stuff.
Daniel: You can make really great productions, that's how many big bands do it nowadays, that they record at home and maybe only record the drums in the studio.
Dirk: The guitars are easy to record at home.
Daniel: We don't do it any differently. We're not going into the studio now either, maybe we'll have the mixing done again with Suffersystem and maybe with the next Defected Decay.
Dirk: Just the mixing/mastering alone costs a lot of money with professionals like Dan Swanö or Jörg Uken from Soundlodge Studio. But if you do it yourself, you don't achieve the optimum.
Daniel's wife comes in, we talk about children who listen more to K-pop nowadays and about international football, which only serves as an excuse for barbecuing, which is why Daniel and his wife ignored the last World Cup in Qatar, because it's not so good to barbecue here in November. We talk about metal-listening and non-metal-listening wives (mine), and how good that is for the relationship, or not.
Dirk: And do you always have to withdraw when listening to music?
Yes, I have my own room for everything, no one bothers me there and my collection is stored there. Dirk, you come from Essen and have lived in Hattingen for how long?
Dirk: For four years, my wife comes from Hattingen.
Okay, that was also the reason for the move then, wasn't it?
Dirk: Yes, since we have children now, my wife and I said to ourselves that they should grow up in a different environment. I used to live in Essen-Katernberg, in the north of Essen. It's a bit disreputable there, but we actually lived there quite nicely in a small colliery house, which I have now rented to a friend. And then it actually happened quite quickly that we moved here from Essen. My wife and I still work in Essen, so we still go to Essen and back every day. The children have a completely different environment here, everything is still nice here in Hattingen.
Yes, I saw that on the way down here.
Dirk: It's a town for old people, but there's nothing going on here for young people.
Yes, but to come back to it, when I visited the Zollverein Coal Mine Industrial Complex, it was said that Essen is now the greenest city in Germany. Hardly anyone thinks that, most people would probably rather think of Munich.
Dirk: Essen was European Capital of Culture for a year because they have so much culture to offer in Essen, haha. I also work for the city of Essen. That's why I was a bit involved, I can only smile about it. And of course there are green areas in Essen, but if you drive through Hattingen you think, well, how many trees does Essen have?
That was only referring to big cities, I think.
Dirk: Yes, the south of Essen has quite a lot.
Daniel: But the Ruhr area is relatively green. Well, I'll say that compared to the past, when all the mines were still in operation here, you hardly saw any green spaces anywhere, at least in the pictures you're familiar with.
Dirk: But where I grew up, the whole north of Essen, where there used to be fields and where the farmers still drove their tractors, there are now apartment and single-family houses. My grandmother and grandfather came to the Ruhr area because they both wanted to work at the Zollverein colliery, my grandfather worked underground in the mine, my grandmother was in the coking plant, that was sometime in 1935, before the start of the Second World War. And of course, if you saw pictures of the stories that were told back then, then it was dirtier, the windows were also dirty more often, because the heating was different, and yet it was totally green. I was born in 1971 and I still saw many green spots, so I remember Essen as beautiful, I can't claim that nowadays.
It used to be said that people who lived near the coal mines in the Pott region only got their washing back in a dark colour after it had been dried in the air. There is also the film "Smog" about a fictitious smog catastrophe in the Ruhr area from 1973. Some viewers thought the pseudo-documentary was real and called the TV station WDR during the broadcast, worried whether they or their relatives in the Ruhr area were still safe, haha.
By the way, I stalked Dirk's Facebook profile a bit. Are you a carpenter? There's a picture, very death metal-like, where you can be seen in front of all the coffins in the background.
Dirk: I'm an electrician, but I get around a lot. And during one visit there were the coffins for the social hardship cases who can't afford a funeral, the city of Essen makes these cheap things. They were stacked up behind me and I took a photo.
Daniel, you were born in Hattingen?
Daniel: Yes, somehow it never took me away from here.
But this area, if I've seen it right, is actually the link between the Bergisches Land and the Ruhr area.
Daniel: Yes, this really is the southern Ruhr area. In about half an hour you're also in Wuppertal. It's really nice here, everything is very dignified, but you can't find any trendy things here or many pubs or anything else.
Dirk: It's very green here and there are many nice cycle paths, for example from Wuppertal to Bochum.
Let's talk about Daniel's first band Dark Before Dawn.
So that's where you met for the first time?
Daniel: Exactly, Dirk gave me a CD with the instrumental recordings and he also rented a studio in the Zeche Carl.
Dirk, do you still have contact with Kreator?
Dirk: Not really, when I lived in Essen I met Mille in the shopping centre from time to time and made small talk, but nothing more. But in general, when it all started, they were in a different world, I just started making music and I was four years younger than them. I was maybe 17, 18 years old when I was sitting there and they were all over 20 and were drinking and smoking pot. They celebrated their first successes and naturally had their noses a little higher, so it was nothing more than small talk. Instead, there were other people in the vicinity of the Zeche Carl who were more important to me.
But you didn't play in the famous "Loser" film (a german movie from 1987 with members of Kreator, Sodom, Violent Force and the nowadays very famous band Die Toten Hosen)?
Dirk: No, I was too young for that, but we were supposed to appear in the "Thrash Altenessen" film. Especially because my friend Stefan and I were at the Zeche Carl a lot and knew it well, but they had a lot of people who were involved and didn't get back to us. That's not so bad now, but it would have been cool if we had appeared briefly and could have made a few comments, because the film is already a document of its time. Well, I could tell a lot of stories from my early years with Kreator, Darkness or Charger, a super cool trash metal band from back then with Speesy from Kreator on bass. I don't remember the name of the drummer of Charger (according to Metal Archives a certain Andreas "Lacky" Lakaw, who also played in Darkness - author's note), he was better than Ventor back then and Boni played guitar and sang. I thought they were better than Kreator back then. When Darkness released "Death Squad", I thought they were on the same level as Kreator with "Pleasure to Kill".
But it wasn't all my music that came out of this area, I never liked Living Death because the singer only howled. I liked Darkness because they totally identified with their Thrash Metal. Olli, the singer of Darkness, didn't cope well with this alcohol and drug consumption life (he died in 1998 - author's note) and then Darkness had another singer. It became a bit more melodic and then I didn't like it any more. But generally it was quite a good time, those first years when I was on the road, there was also the Mephisto in Gelsenkirchen, where we met, that wasn't far away.
This metal pub also appears in the Sodom documentary "Lords of Depravity". In general, it all seemed to be very alcoholic.
Dirk: Most likely they washed away all the bacteria, haha. Tom still looks fit. And I think Sodom are really good, better than Kreator. Although I was always a big Kreator fan, I already knew "Extreme Aggression" when it wasn't released yet, because they had a rehearsal room next to us and we could listen to the songs every day, with "Some pain will last" we always thought the doors would fly right out of the rehearsal room, the bass drum was pounding there. That was really cool, those are things you don't forget. I also knew all the people from security and the bar, they always waved you through and let you in for free to the concerts. Those were great times as a teenager, but as you say, a lot of alcohol was involved. At that time Sodom had their rehearsal room about 500 metres away from the Zeche Carl as the crow flies.
Daniel: That's where they are again now, I think.
Dirk: Yes, in the Stauderstrasse. In the past, when I was in their rehearsal room, there were countless beer bottles on the floor, you couldn't walk, you couldn't count them, the whole floor was covered.
So empties worth several thousand euros, haha.
Dirk: Yes, those are the funny and nostalgic memories, and there were also many nice things. It was just Essen North and some things were simply antisocial back then, too.
We talk about the development of the music scene, about commercial potential and how a band can earn money nowadays, especially, of course, about the opportunities and risks of the internet. We come to the conclusion that bands on a hobby level have better opportunities nowadays because of the internet.
Dirk: As long as bands like Kreator or Sodom can make a living out of it, then it doesn't seem so bad. But if you're a new band trying to get a foothold at a young age these days, you have to be either exceptional or virtuoso to get noticed, with just normal rough music you hardly have a chance to make a living.
Dirk: In terms of music, yes, but Daniel's vocals have always been in a Thrash-style, I once said his voice is somewhere between Kreator and Legion of the Damned. The first two Suffersystem demos, which I sang myself, were brutal death metal and I just growled deeply. But then I didn't liked it any more and asked Daniel if he would like to sing, and he did it spontaneously out of his gut. With us, a lot is still done out of the gut. And then you have to give it a title, and since I play the music in a very death metal style, but also like to incorporate the thrash metal influence that I picked up back then and that I can't and don't want to deny, it makes sense to call the whole thing that, especially because of Daniel's singing. I am death and Daniel is htrash, haha. Something new is coming soon!
Dirk, you still have False Mutation at the start.
Back to Defected Decay, "Troops of Abomination" is also available in several vinyl colours, isn't it?
Dirk: Actually there were only supposed to be two colours, but the record company somehow had some problems with the pressing plant and they pressed a few single copies out of goodwill.
The label is called Silent Watcher Records, where is it based, tell us a little bit, how did the contact come about?
Dirk: They come from Kaiserlautern.
Daniel: I found them by chance on the internet. I thought about which small labels there are that could fit. We had been thinking about the first CD, which we recorded completely ourselves, that it should come out on vinyl sometime, that's always been a dream. So I did some research on the internet and found the website and there was talk of re-releases of old classics or releases that had never been released on vinyl. So I just wrote to Alex from Silent Watcher Records, the label had been around for maybe a year, he hadn't released that much at that time. Then I sent him the CD, and a short time later he got back to me and said it would work.
How to imagine a rehearsal of Defected Decay?
Dirk: There is no real rehearsal, I make the music and always send Daniel pre-rehearsal tracks.
Daniel: There are already two new songs.
Dirk: Yes, I have actually worked on them a bit more now. Defected Decay was actually just born out of a whim that we wanted to do something different, a bit slower, and since we are both Bolt Thrower and Asphyx fans, the direction was actually already set. The new songs are so good, I'm really looking forward to the feedback. On the new track "Hellspawn" Daniel sang some stuff that I just thought was amazing when I got it back and heard it. That's the exciting thing, you don't know how it will develop.
Daniel: In teh beginning I used to go to Dirk's place and record my vocals in his living room between the laundry dryer and other things. Now I do it completely alone at home, I also bought some equipment and set up in the cellar. There I have my peace and don't disturb anyone.
In my opinion, Daniel's singing convinces with death metal growls, which are nevertheless hard, accentuated and understandable. The grunting heard in some bands is totally lame, basically anyone can do that.
Daniel: That's exactly what's important to me personally, and many people also say that they like the fact that you can always understand what I'm singing. I also listen to bands where I don't give a shit and our lyrics are not necessarily so important that everyone has to understand and comprehend them. But when I listen to a record, it's actually important to me to hear a bit of what it's actually about, and in this respect that also applies to my own singing.
Dirk: That's also important to be able to sing along.
How important are lyrics to you in death metal? Bolt Thrower once wrote something about the use of "Panzerschokolade" in World War II, the quasi precursor of crystal meth, the soldiers were no longer afraid of dying...
Daniel: That already gives me new ideas for lyrics, haha.
Dirk: It always depends on the band, so with my favourite band Death, I think I can sing along to every song.
Well, it's a bit more philosophical than Deicide for example, isn't it?
Dirk: Well, "Scream bloody gore" or "Leprosy", those are my favourite albums, I wouldn't necessarily say that about them. But I've never had the idea to read the lyrics of Suffocation. I know the choruses, that's enough. But as I said, it always depends on the band.
Daniel: I think it also depends on the mood, because sometimes you listen to music only as a by-product or, on the other hand, very intensively. That's why I bought a nice armchair and put it here in the next room. Especially now in the winter months, I sit down and just listen to music more intensively, then of course I also pick up a record cover or the booklet and read the lyrics, which immerses you much more deeply in the music.
Daniel: I don't know, we had a review now, I really had to swallow a bit, I had to read it several times. Björn Thorsten Jaschinski wrote something about the record in Deaf Forever magazine, where I was of the opinion that he hadn't really listened to it that intensively, that he had somehow blurted something out and we really couldn't understand that. We just thought, how did he take it now, does he somehow understand it as glorifying war?
What did he actually write?
Daniel: He orientated himself a bit the cover artwork, that would be similar to a certain kind of magazine, I don't know these magazines and I can't remember the name.
Landser magazines maybe (a now discontinued series of trashy literature propagating the myth of the clean German Wehrmacht and portraying war as heroic)?
Daniel: Yes, exactly, when I read the word Landser, I just thought, what does he interpret into that?
Dirk: But I don't care what others think.
But it's also bullshit, with Bolt Thrower or Hail Of Bullets with their covers and lyrics there was never this accusation.
Dirk: He didn't really deal with it, that's why I immediately ignored it. But as I said, I'm not really interested in the opinion of others. He wrote that the music was also just mediocre, but that's no big deal. Other reviews, by people who have studied the music, have gone into more depth and have picked out subtleties and have not always just referred to the less than perfect production.
But I think your production is good in that it is not a glossy production. Especially with death metal, this scratchy and dirty sound is perfect.
Dirk: Yes, I see it that way too. If it sounds like clinical sounds or like the best studio, nobody can tell me that the people who make such recordings can also play it in the same way. There's so much fiddling in the studio, every note is recorded individually, I've often heard that from others. And I think this dirty sound is part of death metal and it wasn't perfect in the past either. Listen to the first Kreator, Sodom or whatever, they became cult. And the listeners today are all totally spoiled. The people we want to appeal to are simply these old school fans like us, so it's allowed to sound dirty and imperfect. We would also have liked to play live to convince people of us.
That would have been my next question, is there anything planned in this respect? What would Dirk do then, play the drums?
Dirk: No, my part is the guitar.
Daniel: I would sing by the way, haha.
Dirk, you also played the drums now, didn't you? Or is that a drum computer?
Dirk: No, they are neither recorded nor is it a drum computer. There once used to be drum computers where you could enter everything. I recorded the first two Suffersystem releases with them. I also recorded them with a Tascam eight-track recorder that I had originally bought for Resurrected. It cost 5000 DM at the time, and when it became possible to do it digitally on a PC, it was worth 150 Marks, because nobody needed it any more. In the meantime, you can adjust the MIDIS, you can create the beat and the speed as you need it, so that the drum track stands. You do that with the PC and then look for the MIDIS, adjust them yourself and make the songs out of them. You can also do the whole thing by setting up an electric drum kit and recording the stuff. My thing is just the guitar. Firstly, as I said, I don't have the time and secondly, I want to concentrate on the guitar, so for me the drums are an accessory. Of course, I would much rather have a drummer who provides me with the tracks so that I can play something to it.
Daniel: We have been working on that for a while now, to find a drummer for the recordings.
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„The thing is, we can rely on each other. And I've always found in all my time as a musician that you can't rely on most people.“
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But the second record sounds quite a bit better and more focused, even if the debut also has its charm.
But are you actively searching at the moment in the sense that you place an ad somewhere?
Daniel: We ask our friends who are also active in bands here and who can drum really well.
Dirk: The thing is, we both can rely on each other. And I've always found in all my time as a musician that you can't rely on most people.
I also think that you should be on the same wavelength, also regarding the importance of the band if you play together. Would it be an option to hire someone as a drummer only for gigs?
Dirk: What musician only want to play live somewhere? You might find someone who is satisfied with that from time to time. But to come to a common denominator without then also making more out of it? The thing is, if I invest even more time in it now, I'm guaranteed to have less time for my family. As I said, I also have two children and always a long way to go, we are similar, Daniel goes to Hagen and I go to Essen and we are both on the road every day for 60-70 kilometres in addition to the eight-hour day, and then there is the family, dog, house and yard. If you then say rehearse once a week, you've found the people, which unfortunately we haven't yet found here in the surrounding area, that almost brings too much with it for me to want to do a real band again and play gigs at the age of 52. We would certainly have a few possibilities, we know a lot of people.
Daniel: We've already had a few requests, which we unfortunately had to turn down.
And playing with a drum machine, would that be a possibility?
Daniel: We are not Samael, haha.
Daniel: Drummers too, actually, but you don't want to persuade people.
The agreement, also in terms of musical orientation, has to be right, otherwise it usually fails sooner or later, that's my experience.
Dirk: People always say that the Ruhr area is big, there are a lot of musicians here, but there are also a lot of good bands here now. I don't know if you know the sampler "Hymns to eternal decay", there are a lot of good bands from North Rhine-Westphalia on it. Still, it's not so easy to find someone suitable.
The centre of this NRW death metal thing has always been the small town of Wermelskirchen in the Bergisches Land. Are you or were you often in Wermelskirchen in the past, that's not too far from here.
Dirk: It was never my corner. Even when I was still with Resurrected, we were more in Duisburg.
Daniel: I used to go there more often when I was younger, I had a nice evening, drank beer and then slept in the car. Nowadays I don't want to do that anymore.
Where do you see the main difference between the debut and the second record? But can you also say something about the process of creation concerning this two releases?
Dirk: Yes, you're addressing exactly the right thing, as I said before, the debut was actually only conceived as a demo, in the sense that we wanted to do something other than Suffersystem. And then I wrote one song, two or three songs and Daniel said that it sounded really good. And suddenly we had eight songs. Was it eight or nine, haha?
Daniel: Eight. With the new album we wrote one more than we released, so nine in total.
Dirk: It was just done on a whim, that's why I just put the drums together there, because it was just designed as a demo. Then we released the CD ourselves and suddenly there was a lot of positive feedback in the forums on the net. We were both surprised and Daniel was able to land this record deal and then we focused more on it. You invest a bit more because the expectations rise again. Accordingly, you can hear that on "Troops of Abomination". With the current new recordings, the focus is again on delivering quality. But it's fun, especially because you can let off steam a bit, because it's also slower sometimes and a few melodies come in.
Daniel: And the time factor is not to be neglected, we invested a lot more time for the new record, as before mentioned,the debut was finished in no time.
Will there be a new album in the foreseeable future?
Dirk: At least we want to record something and then we'll see if someone will release it.
Can you say anything about the listeners' reactions, also from where the most reactions or orders came, maybe from the farthest corners of the world, which you didn't expect at all?
Daniel: The furthest I've sent both albums in a row was Australia. It was someone who saw us on YouTube, an emigrated German, and then I sent the record there. It took three months until it arrived in the nowhere in the Australian bush at the specified post office box. I was a bit suspicious, I thought it would never get there. But after three months I got the message that everything had arrived safely and that he was really happy.
Dirk: Probably the mail is delivered there by the kangaroo, haha.
Daniel: I also sent him the new disc, which only took a month and a half to arrive. It always hurts my soul when you have to charge people so much because of the postage costs, so they often get free fabric, stickers, pins or a Suffersystem CD for free, so of course they're happy about that.
Dirk: Making others happy also makes you happy.
Do you currently have any records that you find particularly good, maybe something newly discovered, however well-known or unknown? Which classics do you play regularly?
Dirk: My classics are always on once a week. I often go back to Death when I don't know what to put on. I have them right above my CD shelf, then I usually take the "Scream Bloody Gore" or the "Leprosy". Apart from that, I'm a total fan of Hour of Penance, I often play Suffocation, and as far as newer stuff is concerned, apart from the new Obituary album, I haven't listened to anything else in 14 days, except maybe Lord of the Lost, my wife likes Gothic and Metal.
Didn't Lord of The Lost play on the last Iron Maiden tour? (And a few weeks after the interview, they won the German preliminary round for the Eurovison Song Contest - author's note).
Dirk: Yes, that's right. I think they're good too. The development is a bit strange now, but that's another topic. The last album that really blew me away was the last Deicide" Overtures of blasphemy".
Speaking of Deicide, maybe as a big Deicide fan the big amulet of this demon head would be something for you, haha. Deicide seem to have a cooperation with a jewellery manufacturer, the thing costs 600 dollars.
Daniel: I was totally convinced by Laceration last year. They sound very Swedish and they have such great grooves, the album has completely picked me up in the last few months. And from very recent records, that has nothing to do with death metal, the current In The Woods album called "Diversum".
When I think of In The Woods, I always think of "Heart of the Ages".
Daniel: That's their cult album, it's still very black metal, after that they drifted a bit towards rock music. They have a new singer now and I listened to it for interest and I think it's really good. It's really only rock music now, but I think it's really brilliant. Especially in the morning, when I'm still a bit tired and driving to work, it's just the right music.
Dirk: I've never heard of them.
Dirk: We listen to a lot of Swedish Death, more recent stuff like Entrails. But any insider tips?
Daniel: I also liked the first Evocation. And I'm glad that Dismember are on the road again, unfortunately I didn't see them live due to Corona. But I heard that they didn't play that well live. I'm curious if they'll record a new album with this line-up, that's supposed to happen.
About Dismember we came to talk about Nuclear Blast Records.
Dirk: I still have stuff like Righteous Pigs on single or stuff from Disharmonic Orchestra.
I also remember Defecation and the good old copied Nuclear Blast black and white flyers, also with the early days of bands like Hypocrisy or Sinister.
Daniel: Yes, if you rummage around there today, I've just looked in again and pre-ordered the new Memoriam album, I hardly find anything that interests me anymore.
That concerns some labels, just look what happened to Napalm Records, in the past Abigor, today they have bands like Feuerschwanz under contract...
Daniel: They have shit bands under contract, but the mailorder is still good and reliable. Dirk didn't have such a good experience there, but they also have stuff that you can't get everywhere, e.g. the Vital Remains vinyl reissues of the old albums.
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„But there are things that sound better on record and that happened to me with our album. Daniel gave me the LP, then I put it in the corner and only two months later I actually put it on and noticed how good it sounded.“
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So you mainly collect vinyl.
Daniel: The last few years a bit again. Let's go around the corner, there are still some cupboards.
I'm getting fed up with all this turning over of vinyl, and singles even more so.
Dirk: You don't really listen to your own music very often. But when our "Troops of Abomination" LP came out after the CD, I was really surprised. I'm also happy with the sound of the CD. But there are things that sound better on vinyl and that happened to me with our album. Daniel handed me the LP, then I put it in the corner and only two months later I actually put it on and noticed how good it sounded. Of course, it always depends on how the sound system is set up, but the sound came across much better, my own music was suddenly so much fun and I was totally enthusiastic.
Daniel: Were you not so convinced before, haha?
Dirk: I'm always sceptical anyway, I do what I like and if others like it, it's nice, and if not, I don't really care. But I haven't heard it myself for a long time. It was recorded last year and in between we have already recorded so many new things.
Daniel: It's hard for us to decide, we got two different mixes from Dan Swanö, one according to the direction we gave him and another one. I sent them to Dirk and he liked the one that I didn't like so much, haha.
There are also bands that release both versions on a double CD.
Daniel: Like Dark Funeral with "The secrets of the black arts", which was also released after many years as a double CD with both versions. They both sound good. In the end, we stuck to the music that Dirk favoured, because he had set the direction we wanted to take.
Dirk: The other version wasn't bad either, it's really difficult.
Daniel: Sometimes you just have to decide from your gut.
Dirk: Well, I can't understand the people who still buy tapes, the sound is always worse, even if you use the best tape ever.
The operator of the cassette label Darkness shall rise has started his own business and quit his job, so the demand seems to be there.
Dirk: I also know people who still buy cassettes. An friend bought the new Graceless on cassette and it is mastered differently than a record or a CD. It must have a mega great sound, he also has it on CD and the cassette is in no way inferior to the CD.
It's also about the fact that the tapes can quickly tear or wear out. I think many people only put tapes in their cupboards as collector's items, often the download code comes with it anyway.
Daniel: We also released a 40-piece limited version of the new album via a do-it-yourself label from Düsseldorf, someone who does it as a hobby. It also found its buyers.
Dirk: So there's something for everyone and it makes a lot of people happy. That's what music is for, that's great, people are happy, the musician who made the music is happy that he was allowed to make it and could immortalise himself. But Suffersystem is also available on Amazon Music or Spotify.
How did the listing on Amazon Music come about?
Daniel: We didn't do anything about it, but Black Blood Records, who released the last Suffersystem record, were responsible for it.
And do you get an overview of how often your tracks are played there?
Daniel: No, we were never really interested in that.
Dirk: I'm not interested in streaming at all, only to listen to it, or to see if an album is good at Band Camp. Or I download an album from Telegram and if it's good, I buy it, and if it's bad, I delete the download. Whether there are high views on Spotify, YouTube or somewhere else is not particularly important to me. Of course I was happy when we saw how our album was listened to or clicked on by over 8000 people on the Death Metal Promotion YouTube channel. Maybe it wasn't a good 8000 people, but for example only 2000 who watched four times, we don't know. But then it seems to have been good if some people listen to it more often. That makes you a bit proud, but on the other hand I immediately forgot about it. Streaming is simply not for me, I don't use it myself, unless I just want to listen to a certain song, then I also use Alexa.
Daniel: What's always a bit stupid about digitalisation is that sooner or later the songs appear on the internet for free. On the day of the release, I uploaded the album to Band Camp and of course I also sent out promo packages. Especially then, I already believe that it won't be put online directly. But a short time later, after two or three days, you could download our record on numerous forums.
Sooner or later it always happens, it's just a matter of time.
Dirk: But I think it's good, because it makes you better known. Of course, if you want to earn money with your music, it's annoying. But especially as a small band, it's great if people in Russia or Africa can listen to our music.
Daniel: But the real fans actually buy the original anyway, and some only the download on Band Camp.
Actually, the discussion is pointless anyway, the wheel of time can't be turned back. What else do you have to say at the end of the interview?
Dirk: We are happy that you are interested, as many others have been lately, and that makes us proud, just like the many downloads of our stuff.
Daniel: Exactly, we are happy about every support, thank you very much for coming here for the interview.
In the old town of Hattingen I had the pleasure of a guided tour by my two local guides. Funnily enough, the first three people we met after parking the car at the edge of the old town were three metal fans in their 40s, after Daniel and Dirk had not tired of pointing out that beautiful Hattingen was rather a dignified town for senior citizens. After returning, we had coffee and cake before I could start my journey home. When the navigation system showed me the next petrol station 1.8 km away, I passed the municipal border to Bochum after a few hundred metres. This is probably only found in the Ruhr region, where you hardly notice that you are already in the next town.
